Delegate Conundrum.

(cross posted at kickin it with cg and Clintonistas for Obama)

I came across a story today about Hillary Clinton delegate Sacha Millstone of Boulder, Colorado.  Apparently Millstone has hired an attorney after she received a Democratic Party email that ordered her to come to headquarters to 'explain' disparaging remarks she made about Barack Obama.

Her attorney wrote the DNC asking for the rules that allow the party to threaten a person's removal from the state delegation. Party officials say the issue has been dropped.

Now I don't know anything about this particular person, nor her motivations.  But this raises an interesting conundrum for the Party - should delegates be free to criticize the nominee?  And if so - why would they be forced to 'explain themselves' for remarks they make.  Thoughts?



Display:


not sure... (2.00 / 5)

is this a free speech issue?  it is interesting to ponder though.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:01:06 PM EST

Doubtful (2.00 / 8)

The DNC is a private entity.  The First Amendment applies only to the government, as do most constitutional rights.


by rfahey22 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

really????????????? (2.00 / 2)

so hypothetically an employer could reprimand an employee for making disparaging remarks about the company during lunch hour?

v. odd.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:12:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (2.00 / 5)

Sure.  Employers typically can fire/reprimand for any reason or no reason at all, unless there's a specific law against it (such as federal non-discrimination laws prohibiting adverse employment actions based on race, sex, age, national origin, religion, etc.).  The Constitution does not really offer many protections in private life.


by rfahey22 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:15:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i am honestly... (none / 0)

stunned.  

as a canadian i know the basic US constitutional stuff (our is the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms) but i am pretty sure that ours covers quite a bit in private life.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i am honestly... (2.00 / 3)

That info you're getting above is not really correct. Plenty of Americans have union contracts, civil service rules, and other federal and state employment laws that protect free speech and other rights in the workplace. But most Americans do tend to believe they have no legal protections in the workplace, which is exactly the way their employers want it.


by LakersFan on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:17:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Civil Service is PUBLIC employment. (2.00 / 3)

Union rules are private AGREEMENTS.




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Civil Service is PUBLIC employment. (2.00 / 3)

Which carry the force of law.

In the private sector, workers are fairly well protected against discrimination on the basis of race, gender, and disability, but beyond that it's strictly a matter of how strong their unions are.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Civil Service is PUBLIC employment. (2.00 / 1)

"The First Amendment applies only to the government"

Bzzzt, wrong (as usual).

It applies on to congress.  Judges muzzle witnesses everyday, presidents muzzle aides everyday.

This has to do with LAWS passed by CONGRESS.


by chicagomary on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 08:01:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Civil Service is PUBLIC employment. (none / 0)

While the text mentions only Congress, it has not been so narrowly interpreted.  Bush could not enforce an Executive Order to shut down the New York Times, for example.  Moreover, you make the mistake of assuming that rights are absolute - they are not.  Courts have the inherent authority to manage their affairs in order to serve the interests of justice; the President has the inherent authority to supervise subordinates.  I wouldn't quit your day job (assuming that it's not law-related).


by rfahey22 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 09:36:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i am honestly... (2.00 / 2)

So you guys can badmouth the company over the lunch hour without repurcussions?  Cool!

One thing to keep in mind about the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights is that they were drafted in an environment in which government itself was viewed as a potential agent of tyranny - a taker of liberties, not a guarantor of liberties.  As a result, maybe it isn't so surprising that many of the rights enshrined in the Constitution are negative rights (the government "shall not...") and that the Constitution/Bill of Rights do not seem to envision the government playing an active role in the private lives of citizens.  

Besides, the limited reach of the First Amendment does have some positives - after all, you can hide rate this comment if you don't agree with it!


by rfahey22 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:21:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i am honestly... (2.00 / 1)

well the canadian charter of rights and freedoms was written in 1982 i believe so i guess i take your point about the environment in which it was drafted.

that said - (i maybe incorrect) but i am pretty sure that you need just cause for letting go of an employee.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not always... (2.00 / 1)

I work in an area that is considered At-Will, the company can terminate you at any point for almost any reason (as long as it is not discriminatory in nature). Fortunately the company I do work for doesn't follow these practices internally. But they could and be legally just fine.


by notedgeways on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:01:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i am honestly... (2.00 / 1)

I'd be VERY curious to find out what your job is.  I can't imagine that Canada is THAT much different than the US.

US jobs are governed by contract law, which means that unless you're a professional or have a strong union, a company can fire you for any reason at any time.  The reason I took a civil service job is so that I wouldn't have to deal with that.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:11:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i am honestly... (none / 0)

i work in the private sector in the province of ontario.  however - i have had employees who i have had problems getting rid of.  as far as i know, if the employee has past the 3-month probationary period - and there is not just cause - you could have a problem with termination.

and yet, my husband works in a union and they let people go all the time for 'lack of work'...  so i guess you never know.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:19:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i am honestly... (2.00 / 1)

Again cg, people are interpreting some of U.S. labor laws all wrong. While most private, non-union employees are "at will" here in the U.S., we have lots of laws that we can use to sue our employers if they fire us for reasons that could be interpreted as illegal discrimination (which can be a lot of things). As a result, employers that are averse to lawsuits tend to only fire employees with good cause.

Employers do make it a point to tell us that our employment is "at will" in order to scare us into being good little soldiers. But it's important that American workers understand that they do have rights in the workplace, and that they stand up for them, because many employers are happy to violate these laws as long as they can get away with it.


by LakersFan on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:10:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i am honestly... (2.00 / 2)

"as a canadian i know the basic US constitutional stuff (our is the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms) but i am pretty sure that ours covers quite a bit in private life."
------------------------------

Not when it comes to freedom of expression.  I don't know much about Canadian constitutional law, but, generally, Canadian free speech protections are considered less protective than U.S. free speech protections.  For example, the Canadian government has more constitutional leeway in banning offensive material than the U.S. government.  

If you know of Canadian case law that suggests anything differently, please provide a link.  

Additionally, in the United States, an employer does NOT need just cause before firing an employee.  So, yes, an employee can be fired for saying negative things about the company.  Moreover, firing that employee could constitute just cause, as the employer could credibly argue about how the disgruntled employee was affecting company morale and efficiency.

So, there really is nothing to whatever critique you were trying to imply of the democratic party in your diary.  

The delegate is not being a team player, putting her own petty agenda over the good of the party's interests.  But, thankfully, last time I checked, the U.S. Constitution does not give party delegates to constitutional right to hold on to festering resentment to the detriment of the presumptive democratic presidential nominee and the democratic party.  


by ProfessorReo on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:09:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i am honestly... (none / 0)

You live up to you name Professor. Mojo


by Politicalslave on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:05:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i am nit sure i understand.... (none / 0)

the point you are making.  yes i agree that the canadian govt has far more leeway in banning offensive material.  but how does this relate?

and thank you for your comments with regard to 'just cause' - your point is taken and in some ways could be used even here in canada - but frankly usually its quite hard to prove.  in fact, in most cases that i personally have seen here in canada in this regard have gone in favour of the worker.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:23:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (2.00 / 2)

I wouldn't want to be heard slamming the boss at lunch time. It might turn into a long lunch.


by Politicalslave on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I did computer work... (2.00 / 8)

for the Coca-Cola bottling plant here in Sacramento.  One of our contractors was asked to leave the premises for wearing a Pepsi jacket.  I was his replacement, later I was told employees had been fired for having Pepsi gear on when they were off the clock and off the property.  That is what is meant by at-will employment.


by tonedevil on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I did computer work... (2.00 / 1)

You're in Sac?!?  Homeskillet!!!

Is that at the big coke cup out by Arco in Natomas?  My office used to be out in that area.  Then they moved to us out to Rancho, ugh.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:32:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I worked at the Coke Cup... (2.00 / 1)

and the old skool plant on Stockton Blvd.  The company I worked for had a computer maintenance contract with them.


by tonedevil on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I worked at the Coke Cup... (2.00 / 1)

Ahhh, right.  I remember that place.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:51:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (2.00 / 4)

CG,

Yeah, it sucks, but it's completely true.

Private organizations, (and public companies), are allowed to throw people out of their communities for many reasons, including speech.

The DNC is legally allowed to sanction this delegate.

Here are my thoughts on the issue:

If this delegate speaks out, and the Repubes use that speech against the Democratic party, does that serve our larger goals?  

Sometimes, our larger goals can outweigh the personal desires of a disgruntled member to opine on any subject.

Where would you draw he line?


by snark adam excuse on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (2.00 / 2)

uh...employee? somehow I don't think that will go over very well. and bias would be shown unless an equivalent BHO delegate(s) were treated the same.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (2.00 / 1)

Bias isn't illegal.  Very specific types of bias are illegal--for example based on gender, race, disability, or in some places and cases sexual orientation.  But organizations are free to fire based on any reason, or no reason, so long as it's not due to specifically illegal discrimination.

To take a more clean-cut example, if I curse out my neighbor, I'm not likely to be arrested for it--it's protected speech.  If I curse out by boss, I certainly can (and probably will) be fired for it.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (2.00 / 2)

Also, find me an Obama delegate who says she can't bring herself to vote for our presumptive nominee, and I'll give you a cookie.  Difficult to find an "equivalent BHO delegate" in this case.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (1.50 / 2)

one more time real slow;

that.was.someone.else.

different names normally clue people in on that...


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:13:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (none / 0)

Was it?


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:20:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (none / 0)

You are right BishopRook but I want a cookie.


by Politicalslave on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:58:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (2.00 / 1)

sigh, such nonsense. Persumptive is not the same as being the actual nominee. Delegates chosen by a CANDIDATE (which HRC still much as the RW has trained your hate for her) ARE SUPPOSED TO VOTED FOR WHO CHOOSE THEM, but it is not requaired they do so. Nor is there any kind of requirment that they only vote for your guy. Not a real difficult concept. The person who is the subject of the diary has said she will carry out that duty. What she does afterwards is up to her.

The woman who said she would vote for McLame is a different person, with a different name.


by zerosumgame on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:16:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (none / 0)

Your comment is 90% correct.  Cadidate's unless they have released their delegates have solid "locked" pledged delegates going to the Convention.

Hence, the big dust up between pledged and un-pledged (Super Delegates).  The delegates went through a process and are "pledged" to a certain candidate.

Neither candidate won the required amount of "pledged" delegates, and since that is the case, Clinton did not release her delegates, and those pledges belong to her.  Should she release her delegates, then they can cast their vote as they wish to.  Any delegates wishing to change their votes were asked to do so at the State Conventions, before they were pledged to the candidates.

A lot of Clinton delegates like myself will vote for her on the first roll-call/ballot.  Depending on how things continue to go, the plan is to then vote for Obama on the next consecutive ballot.

Things like this do not help out those who are fully entrenched and want to dig in their heels.  It only makes it harder to bring a coalition to the Nomination.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (2.00 / 1)

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (none / 0)

Read the link I provided.

The Democratic insider will stand up at August's national convention and cast her vote for the candidate who suspended her bid on Saturday. And then Millstone will quit the party with which she is falling bitterly out of line.

"This is about the party breaking my trust, women's trust. And that can't be fixed," she says.

Millstone blames Barack Obama and party leaders for not rallying to Clinton's defense. And she slams them for trying to nudge the former first lady out of the race:

"That never would have happened if she were a man."

Call me deaf and blind, as Millstone did more than once during our interview. But there is nothing at all feminist about quitting the party, refusing to vote Obama and threatening to back John McCain or any other candidate who opposes the values that drew devotees to Clinton in the first place.

This story is about Sacha Millstone.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:51:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (2.00 / 1)

Absolutely.  I'm a human resources manager, so I can tell you for certain that's absolutely true.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wow. (none / 0)

i don't think that would fly here with our labour laws.  but i am going to ask a friend of mine who works in industrial relations.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:58:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wow. (none / 0)

In Canada you can't slam the boss and expect to be there for very long. That's the reality.


by Politicalslave on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:11:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wow. (1.00 / 2)

first you need to show "employment" of a delegate


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:14:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wow. (2.00 / 4)

Generally, being in an employer-employee relationship gives you more protections, not less.

Delegates are not employees of the Democratic Party, but the Democratic Party still has every right to select or not select its delegates in any way it sees fit because it is, in fact, a private organization.

That doesn't mean it's a good idea to throw out anybody who shows a hint of dissent.  In fact, it's a bad idea, which is why they didn't go through with it (after prompting from the Obama campaign, BTW).  But they're well within their legal rights.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:24:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really????????????? (none / 0)

Very probably could if it were a private employer.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 10:03:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doubtful (2.00 / 4)

Yeah, the DNC has the right to do this and I'm glad it can.  Delegates supporting McCain should not be going to the Democratic National Convention.


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:31:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doubtful (none / 0)

that was someone else way at the bottom of the piece and yes she deserved removal, do at least try to read the whole story...


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doubtful (none / 0)

What you say is true, but I wonder what your stand is on this issue. Do you support it? The DNC is in the business of electing Democrats to government. The DNC should not be doing anything to discourage dissent. Sometimes, dissent is a good thing.


by TexasDem4Clinton on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:08:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doubtful (none / 0)

While the DNC is a private entity, the delegates can and should be able to make any comments other than they don't support whomever get's the nomination of the Party.

The DNC by-laws allow for such actions, and the "calling into the office" is an intimidation tactic.  Until the candidate WINS the nomination a specific candidate's delegate(s) can continue to be as partisan as they wish to be.

As Obama says...rules are rules.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It depends to what level she went to. (2.00 / 5)

Sounds like we don't actually have the full story. What did she say? Was it threatening, was she advocating for the Republican nominee? There was a lady in WI (I think) who was replaced as a delegate because she started to strongly say she was voting for McCain, seems like a reasonable thing to do to a Democratic delegate in that situation.

As to free speech, it doesn't sound like they where denying her that, but free speech does not automatically absolve one of the consequences of such.

But, this is thin at this point, until we know what happened on both sides it is a tempest in a teacup.


by notedgeways on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:11:27 PM EST

Re: It depends to what level she went to. (2.00 / 3)

i see what you mean and actually the article references that delegate that said she was voting for mccain.  but the fact that the party dropped it says they might feel like they overstepped.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:13:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It may have to do with specific State (2.00 / 1)

laws in regards to removal of a delegate from that State's comlement. IIRC the WI case had to be researched by the State party before they could remove her.


by notedgeways on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:06:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It may have to do with specific State (none / 0)

In Florida, AG Jim Davis (later Representative and gubernatorial nominee) determined back in '83 that candidates couldn't be forced to adhere to any oath not proscribed by statute, but I don't think that extended to delegates.  

By my understanding, "Delegate" is a title that exists solely within a private organization, which can set whatever criteria it desires for awarding it within the bounds of applicable laws.  So the Florida Democratic Party oath, which stipulates that the affiant will "not support the election of the opponent of any Democratic nominee nor will I oppose the election of any Democratic nominee," doesn't work for public candidates but can for officers within the private organization of the party.  

If there is a similar requirement in the oath of the state party in question, I would assume it to be valid on those holding party--not public--offices, and that would include this delegate.  But without knowing more about the applicable rules for the state party in question, I'm just making an assumption.


by Jay R on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:40:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In response to the substantive issue (2.00 / 3)

I suppose it depends on what the comments were.  I thought that earlier there was a delegate who threatened to vote for McCain, and was subsequently removed from his/her state's slate of delegates.  A certain amount of criticism is fine, and of course people who are not affiliated with the DNC are free to do whatever they want, but I have no problem with the DNC putting its foot down if it thinks that a person involved in the official program is set to cause a scene.


by rfahey22 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:13:29 PM EST

Re: In response to the substantive issue (none / 0)

as long as she did not advocate violence or McLame she has every right to say whatever the hell she wants without checking with you as the self-anointed hall monitor


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:38:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In response to the substantive issue (2.00 / 1)

K, Zero.  I'm not part of the DNC.


by rfahey22 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In response to the substantive issue (none / 0)

Some state parties, like Florida's, require more than just not voting for the other guy, but not opposing the election of the party nominee, as a condition for holding party office.


by Jay R on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:43:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In response to the substantive issue (none / 0)

since there is no nominee officially yet (why is that such a hard concept for some people?) that does not come into play. You see, while there is a lot of yammering about it by yammerheads we are not in the GE yet and will not be until that vote is held, so there is no way at this time for anyone to oppose the party nominee.

cause THEN effect is the way the real world works...


by zerosumgame on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:20:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In response to the substantive issue (2.00 / 1)

since there is no nominee officially yet (why is that such a hard concept for some people?)

Can you remind me of the names of all the Democrats who are still running for President and who have not endorsed Obama?

Thanks.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:36:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

she must have lousy lawyers (2.00 / 2)

Since the rules are easily available as a PDF online.

Rule II.B.

Furthermore, voters in the state will have the opportunity to cast their election ballots for the Presidential and Vice Presidential nominees selected by said Convention, and for electors pledged formally and in good conscience to the election of these Presidential and Vice Presidential nominees, under the label and designation of the Democratic Party of the United States, and that the delegates it certified will not publicly support or campaign for any candidate for President or Vice President other than the nominees of the Democratic National Convention.

She can say she prefers Hillary, but she can't publicly support McCain, Barr, or anyone else.


New Jersey politics and news
by John DE on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i dont think she said that... (none / 0)

someone downthread said that she claimed she would vote for HRC at the convention and then leave the party.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:13:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i dont think she said that... (2.00 / 1)

once again well within her rights. people like to pretend it is all sown up but until the t's are crossed and i's dotted it isn't really. being a supporter of HRC is not a crime.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i dont think she said that... (1.00 / 1)

People need to grow up here. Individuals may have rights in particular forums to say what they choose, but that right does not carry with it the corollary that other people may take action against the speaker based on what was said, as long as that 'other people' is not the government. The article does not state what was siad but I'm not sure the Party has to put up with "I'm a delegate to the national convention. I think Obama is a Muslim and a coke-head and will not support him."  or "I'm a delegate to the national convention and I will quit the party  and work against it unless Hillary is the Presidential candidate."  Or "I'm a candidate to the national convention and I believe the party discriminates against all women." Or "We're gonna go to the convention and on the floor make that n------ wish his sorry ass had not been born and the unpatriotic hag who married him."  Some of the current mouthy ones may be doing it where it is being recorded and will  predictably appear in Repub ads later.  But, of course this diary posits that rights such as to free speech are untrammeled by any obligations whatever and that the speaker is never to be held responsible for the consequences of HER words. Men don't get that freedom.


by Christy1947 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:59:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i dont think she said that... (2.00 / 1)

since none of that has been documented as coming from her mouth or her fingers do you have a point except to engage in swift-boating this woman based on your ignorance? Is Mark Penn looking over your shoulder.


by zerosumgame on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 06:35:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i dont think she said that... (none / 0)

The concept of the article is that it does not matter what she said, she had the right to say anything at all and to do so without consequences of any kind and no one else, especially not the DNC to which she is an elected delegate.  That is the point of the comment. Putting in personal slurs does not give your response more power. It just makes the reply look sloppy and tacky.


by Christy1947 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she must have lousy lawyers (2.00 / 1)

Actually, the lawyer probably did his/her job, which was to make life difficult for the DNC.


by rfahey22 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she must have lousy lawyers (2.00 / 1)

I agree this matter went nowhere.


by Politicalslave on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:01:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

what rfahey22 is writing is true..DNC as a (2.00 / 3)

private entity can set their own rules. However as a national committee of a national political party I'm sure they'll use appropriate prudence to work through this one..


by louisprandtl on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:24:54 PM EST

asdf (none / 0)

Canadian gal, are you still anti-Obama?  


Hillary 4 life.
by Hill4Life on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:27:35 PM EST

Re: asdf (2.00 / 3)

I don't think she is anti Obama


by hocuspocus on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No. (2.00 / 1)

She's a "Clintonista for Obama," who is also for Clintonistas that are against Obama, like the one in the diary that captured her imagination.  

I wouldn't mind, except, well, Obama is the nominee now, you know.  Funny how crap like this makes it onto the rec list everytime.  


by Dumbo on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:49:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. (2.00 / 3)

Knock it off, Dumbo.


by snark adam excuse on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. (none / 0)

Yes I don't think  CG supports our candidate in spirit and that's her right. But on mydd she can almost say anything she wants. It's true even on mydd we can be "punished". Thank God


by Politicalslave on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

PS, she DOES support Obama. (2.00 / 3)

I ask you to please, pretty please take my word for it.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:41:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PS, she DOES support Obama. (none / 0)

I'm not convinced but I know how you feel about CG
as others do. Her diaries are REC within seconds
So I don't doubt her support that's for sure. Cheers

by Politicalslave on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:48:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who cares where her spirit is at? (none / 0)

It's not like she can vote either way.


by Mobar on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Lulz at the purity troll, (2.00 / 2)

who goes out of his way to hurt his own cause. I'm sure CG's diary will singlehandedly sink Obama's GE campaign. LOL.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lulz at the purity troll, (none / 0)

This diary talks about free speech. It's just my opinion. This diary also brings up whether we should support our candidate. I support my candidate and I will defend him every time.


by Politicalslave on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:52:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't see how this diary (2.00 / 2)

is in any way harmful to Obama or his campaign. It's not asking whether we should support him, it's asking what people are allowed to say about him. Unless I misread.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:55:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see how this diary (none / 0)

I agree with you I don't think this diary will hurt Obama at all. Cheers


by Politicalslave on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:18:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lulz at the purity troll, (2.00 / 2)

CG, I think I can say with 100% certainty, supports Obama as the Democratic nominee.  The issue of the diary is how one particular delegate's situation should be handled, which has nothing specifically to do with Obama.  About that, even Obama supporters can legitimately disagree.


by rfahey22 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

don't bother. (none / 0)

intellectual honesty is used fast and loose by many here ;)


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:05:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm a purity troll? (2.00 / 1)

Please define it for me, then, because I don't care who anybody who votes for.  I even used to have that in my tagline, if you recall.  What I hate is this:

1. Repeated diaries that set up some surrogate issue as an elliptical way to revive Hillary vs. Obama battles.

2. These same diaries get recommended by the same people, and they make it onto the rec list immediately.

3. When people complain about it, or when the diary is removed by the moderators, a series of "freedom of speech" meta-diaries ensues where  apparently those who didn't like the previous diary don't have open minds or are against free speech for women or Obama-critics.

So, yeah, color me purity-troll.  At least I'm not hosing everybody by cross-posting a diary like this from a blog called "Clintonistas for Obama."  

Just tell us the rules.  I'd love to write a series of diaries that are just as constructive.


by Dumbo on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:56:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You can't even write ONE constructive diary, (2.00 / 1)

much less a series. How is this diary hurtful to the Obama campaign? Seriously. Explain it. Your sputtering will be hilarious.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:08:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I can write a diary "as constructive" (none / 0)

as this one...  But I don't think you would want me to.

I don't want to either.  I'd rather wait for the storm to subside.


by Dumbo on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:07:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm a purity troll? (2.00 / 2)

Dumbo is 100% right on. CG finds this little article from a woman who has complained about Obama and how she doesn't have free speech. So we have a victim and we have Obama. CG writes a nine line diary about this and it's rubber stamped.
Calling someone a purity troll is just another way of discriminating. Free Speech
by Politicalslave on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:43:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. (2.00 / 1)

I find it amusing how one's blog handle so accurately describes themselves.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:03:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. (none / 0)

Nice to hear from you Hootie. Cheers


by Politicalslave on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:08:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. (none / 0)

Hey PS, what's with all this hate toward CG...

Cheers back atcha


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. (none / 0)

Hate? not me.


by Politicalslave on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:49:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Damn Hootie. (none / 0)

You're the first person in MyDD history to ever say that.  My feelings are now like steak tartar.


by Dumbo on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:11:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Damn Hootie. (2.00 / 2)

I just don't understand you...You continually attack CG as if she has no credibility here.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

It's true she was a Clinton supporter, and a damn fine one.  She has made the difficult transition and decision to support our nominee...What more do you want?

You've become what you despise in PUMA...A my way or the highway mentality...Not good...


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:26:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Damn Hootie. (2.00 / 1)

And I doubt your feelings have been reduced to crudos...


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:30:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Damn Hootie. (2.00 / 1)

Hootie is a good guy. But he is very protective of the C40s


by Politicalslave on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:44:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Damn Hootie. (2.00 / 2)

Um...They sure as hell don't need my protection.

I just don't understand why you would continually ridicule a person who has stated repeatedly they support Obama.

Sounds like some people just wanna pie fight all the time.  Many need to find a new hobby to release all that anger.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:47:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Damn Hootie. (none / 0)

The reason I said you were protective was That you wrote a diary "Lay off the C40s"  I agree with you this group doesn't need protecting.


by Politicalslave on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 07:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (2.00 / 2)

Not in my experience.

I'm a big Obama supporter also, (CG will vouch for that).


by snark adam excuse on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i not even going there. (2.00 / 6)

i dont think i was ever anti-obama, even during the primaries.  but isnt that sad that this is what the netroots has become? an user with the name hill4life who spent the primaries mocking people needs to police my intentions for the community.  sigh.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:43:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i not even going there. (2.00 / 2)

The net doesn't carry nuance very well does it?

CG  -  I also goofed up just a couple of nights ago.  Remember? You were there.

Sometimes, we all get carried away.

CGs the real deal.  She's on our side.


by snark adam excuse on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i not even going there. (none / 0)

In fairness, it's mostly what MYDD has become.  But I think there is an analogy to be made:  DKos no longer has to police itself very much, because everyone that has a different opinion has been purged, much like Baghdad.


by ProgressiveDL on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

purged? (none / 0)

i don't think you meant to use that terminology.  

listen - what went on during this primary online was a joke.  instead of rehashing it - which i do not want to - i would ask yourself long and hard who's really to blame for what's happened to mydd.  (and psst:  its not only PUMA)


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: purged? (none / 0)

Does his name start with "J"?

Ooops, gonna get banned again...


by snark adam excuse on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:15:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: purged? (none / 0)

I'm not blaming PUMAs at all.  My point was that DKos drove everyone away (including me) because it was a total echo chamber for Obama.  That's why I like MYDD.  However, now that Obama is the nominee, I kind of want an echo chamber for him.  That's why I have started going back to DKos.


by ProgressiveDL on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 08:29:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (2.00 / 1)

Hey snark It wouldn't matter to me if you were a big clinton supporter. cheers


by Politicalslave on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 07:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (2.00 / 4)

Whatever gave you that impression?


by rfahey22 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (none / 0)

when did you stop beating your wife?


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delegate Conundrum. (2.00 / 1)

Wasn't a dem delegate stripped of voting power after saying she would vote for McCain?

That's just speech, too.


by semiquaver on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:43:43 PM EST

Re: Delegate Conundrum. (none / 0)

yes - they reference that other delegate at the bottom of the article - but this i think - is something else is entirely.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delegate Conundrum. (2.00 / 1)

I think the point is that at it's core, it's the same thing.

Either you have absolute free speech or you do not.  The DNC (like the RNC) clearly does not, as it removed a delegate for merely saying that she would vote for McCain.

So really we're just quibbling in the margins.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

really? (2.00 / 1)

you see no difference between this situation and the other one?  i do and so does the DNC since they backed off this one.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:21:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really? (2.00 / 1)

The DNC doesn't want the PR headache, but no I don't see any difference.  In both cases you have a delegate acting in bad faith, and you have the party removing them, or considering their removal, for what they say.

For free speech to have any meaning at all it has to be free for everything.  You can't set some arbitrary boundary of what "reasonable" free speech is.  It's really all or nothing.  It's not a matter of what your or my subjective standard is.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:32:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really? (2.00 / 1)

so her participation in the convention as a delegate is tied to the things she says in private?

obviously the other one was breaking the practical and theoretical rules - this one not so much.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:36:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really? (2.00 / 1)

I dunno, I really don't see it as a free speech issue; it's a matter of what the party's by-laws are.

And here, no one seems to know what she said.  If she was badmouthing Barack Obama, then it seems to me that there's no cause to remove her, because there's no nominee yet.  If, on the other hand, she was saying that she was just going to go to the convention, vote for Hillary Clinton, and then quit, then that runs into the rule that you have to support the nominee, because she's saying that she only plans on doing so if her candidate wins.

And now I'm getting into a level of minutia that it's even boring to me, and I'm the one talking.  But my point is that I think this is entirely a matter of what the rules are, and whether or not common sense says they should be enforced.  Constitutional rights don't apply here, because the government isn't involved.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:46:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

lol. btw. (2.00 / 1)

you weren't boring me - and you did give a damn good argument why she should 'explain'


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:17:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really? (2.00 / 1)

Or putting it another way, yes, of course I see a difference, but it's a practical difference, not a moral or legal one.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:34:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delegate Conundrum. (none / 0)

no, that was advocating for someone not in the party


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delegate Conundrum. (2.00 / 2)

I think that the Democratic Party should be falling over itself to be democratic and to represent the closeness of the primary.

Unity is not going to come by forcing people into lockstep or by expecting all the delegates to be equally enthusiastic Obama supporters... especially not on day1.

The DNC leadership should read the Cottle OpEd in the Sunday NYTimes... "Calling All Votes".

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/opinio n/10cottle.html
Nearly everyone in the Democratic Party seems to think that officially entering Hillary Clinton's name into a roll-call vote for the presidential nomination at the Democratic National Convention would be a dangerous show of disunity. It's true that having America watch as some portion of Mrs. Clinton's 1,640 pledged delegates thumb their noses at Barack Obama would disrupt the party's vision of a carefully scripted Denver love-in. But finding a constructive way for Mrs. Clinton's seriously aggrieved loyalists to channel their anger and disappointment could wind up being the path of less destruction for Mr. Obama's campaign. Plus, it's the right thing to do.

You don't have to be a die-hard Clintonite, or even much of a feminist, to be moved by the significance of her presidential campaign. In 1972, the Democratic presidential candidate Shirley Chisholm made history by having her 151.95 delegates entered into the convention record. Mrs. Clinton amassed more than 10 times that number. Her achievement deserves an official salute.

Symbolic gestures and signs of respect always hold a larger meaning for the campaign that came in second. More than a few of Mrs. Clinton's devotees, including plenty headed to Denver this month, are in need of catharsis and a bit of closure. They remain convinced that their gal got a raw deal, that she was treated unfairly by the news media, that she was cheated out of her Florida and Michigan delegates by hostile power brokers like Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi, that she was a victim of sexism, that the historic nature of her candidacy was callously dismissed in all the hullabaloo over the historic nature of Mr. Obama's, and on and on and on.

Some of these allegations ring truer than others. But many of Mrs. Clinton's supporters believe them intensely enough to want to make trouble for Mr. Obama. Discouraging Mrs. Clinton's name from being entered into a roll-call vote would give her legions yet one more opportunity to feel that their candidate had been snubbed.

Giving them the chance to see their beloved candidate honored in a highly public forum could, just maybe, help release a little steam from the pressure cooker. Beyond that, there could be other, more direct benefits for Mr. Obama's candidacy.

A roll-call vote for Mrs. Clinton could help Mr. Obama look magnanimous instead of messianic. Fair or not, the man has earned himself a reputation as arrogant. These days, John McCain's campaign spends much of its time watching for the tiniest show of self-importance by Mr. Obama to exploit. By making a grand gesture, inviting (even publicly urging) Mrs. Clinton to sign the (already circulating) petition to have her name submitted for nomination would help Mr. Obama look like a swell guy.

Yes, we would all be reminded of how close the Democratic race for president was when, on the convention floor, delegation after delegation rose to cast its votes. (A few die-hards for Mrs. Clinton might even get mouthy.) But in the end, the tally would indicate that Mr. Obama won. He beat Mrs. Clinton, the inevitable nominee who drove far-more-experienced politicians than Mr. Obama from the race before it even began, and who beat every other guy in the race.

He did it. And he could demonstrate that he is now so comfortable with his victory that he is willing to let Mrs. Clinton tout her achievement as well. (Better still, the delegate total for Mr. Obama would almost certainly be higher than it stood at the end of the primaries, because many of Mrs. Clinton's superdelegates -- and probably even a few of her pledged delegates -- would decide to cast ballots for Mr. Obama.) Sure, some portion of Mrs. Clinton's delegates will never be satisfied with any gesture. They are determined to sink Mr. Obama in the hopes that their candidate can come back and win this thing in 2012.

But the kamikaze cohort is just one, admittedly very noisy, subset of a larger pool of wounded supporters. The trick is to find a big, public way to separate the zealots from those who just want a concerted effort by the party and its candidate to show a scrupulous commitment to respecting every vote cast.

Is this desire reasonable? Sensible? Logical? Maybe not. But in presidential campaigns, reason and logic rarely carry the day.